MARSH FAMILIES
DNA PROJECT
 John Marsh, Project Administrator, ajmarsh@arrrg.org
Y-DNA Haplogroup R1b P312+ L617+

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INTRODUCTION:

 A new Y-DNA SNP called L617 has been discovered in a Marsh (Participant A1 below) in the WTY test at Family Tree DNA.
The person tested L617+ is in haplogroup R1b P312+, but negative for all of the known major subgroups of P312+. 

There are so far few people who have been tested for this new SNP.  This web page has been set up to record all of those who
have been tested for L617, and to record their test results.  Basically there are 3 groups shown below. 

The top group are either tested or inferred to be L617+, so have this SNP. 
The middle group are those tested or inferred L617-, so do not have the SNP. 
The bottom group are a few haplotypes which have some similarities to L617+ people, and might be worth testing for L617.

So far, Tyndall and Marsh families are L617+, and it is believed may be related in the past 500 to 900 years.  A Rogers family is also L671+,
and the Rogers has quite a different haplotype from the Tyndall/ Marsh families.  This indicates the common ancestor of Tyndall/ Marsh and
Rogers families may have lived around 3,000 to 5,000 years ago.  Because all of the L617+ people have the P312+ SNP also which
occurred about 5,000 years ago, it is very likely that the L617+ mutation first occurred about 3,000 to 5,000 years ago.

If someone has test results for L617, positive or negative, please contact John Marsh at ajmarsh@arrrg.org .

An explanation of identification:  Participants in the Marsh Families DNA Project are given a three part identification, eg as
A114B20C1.  In this example, the A114 is the person's individual identity number, the B20 number is the paper trail family number he is
linked to, and the C1 number identifies the group of Y-DNA matching persons which he has been assigned to.  Also, other Q numbers
are assigned to persons of potential interest with similar Y-DNA.

HOW TO ORDER A TEST FOR L617:

Only persons who are R1b haplogroup, and have the SNP P312 may have the SNP L617.  Persons who have tested at the test company
Family Tree DNA are able to order the SNP. It is not particulraly clear on how to order the SNP, so try following these instructions...

1) Go to your Faimily Tree DNA Personal Web page.
2) Click on "Order Tests and Upgrades" from the menu on the left hand side of the page.
3) Click on "order advanced tests".  (note don't click on the alternative option "order advanced SNP tests")
4) Under "Filter" at "test type" select "SNP". 
5) Under "Filter" at "marker" type in "L617" and click on "find".
6) Then for L617 click on "add".
7) Then click on "Next" at the far right of the page.  This takes you to the page to compllete payment and complete the order.

If anyone is unsure if there is any value in them testing for L617, please John at email ajmarsh@arrrg.org and obtain advice.

Y-DNA TEST RESULTS


 

 MARSH FAMILIES DNA PROJECT:
Project Administrator AJ Marsh ajmarsh@arrrg.org
Haplogroup
R1b P312+ L617+
 		 The following are either tested L617+,
or are inferred to be L617+ because a relative has been tested.
(Teague/Tyndall families ... by an approximate method, direct male line relationship to Marsh  families may be about 1,200 years ago, (FTDNA alternatively estimate 50% chance about 500 years ago with less than 3% chance of more than 800 years.)
 		 . .
Surnames tested or inferred to be L617+
MARSH
TYNDALL
TEAGUE (originally TYNDALL???)
PAYNE (originally TINDALE)
SPINK (originally TINDALL???)		 Results Strings for 111 Y-DNA markers as tested at Family Tree DNA 
Currently, Marshes and Tyndalls are thought to have a common ancestor on the direct male line about 500 to 900 years ago, and this infers that L617+ is therefore at least 500 to 900 years old, but possibly older.
It is though possible that Marsh/ Tyndall/ Teague/ Payne/ Spink families may have descended from a Baron (Adam or Robert) de Tyndall in Tynde Dale, Northumberland in the 1100s.  It is unclear what the origin of the
de Tyndall family prior to 1100 was, but a possibility is that they were a family of Norman origin on the direct male line.


 		 . .
Group C1

R1b1a2a1a1b
(A1 tested P312+L21-Z196-DF19- L617+)

 

 

Group C1- Marsh:Marshes generally tracing to Cambridgeshire (in particular West Wratting), Suffolk & Essex England.  There is evidence of a Marshe/ Marche family living in West Wratting Cambridgeshire as far back as the late 1400s, and these are likely ancestors of the C1 Marshes from west Wratting .   There was a Mareys (de Merc/ Maris/ Marsh) family owning land at West Wratting up until 1364 when it passed via an heiress to a Brown family http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report.aspx?compid=66721 .  A Simon de Merc (de Merk/ de Marcq/ Marsh) owned land at "Wratting" in the 1100s.  There is no evidence to connect the C1 Marsh group to Simon de Merc, or the West Wratting Mareys family, but the possibility of a connection is being investigated.  Current thinking is that West Wratting Marshes may not be direct male line descendants of Simon de Merc, who probably descended from the de Marcq family from near Calais, in France.  Current evidence suggests that the de Marcq family were haplogroup I., represented by a Marris family from Lincolnshire.  After 1200, a descendant of Baron Robert de Tyndall moved to Northamptonshire and Norfolk, and had estates within a few miles of Marsh estates in Cambridgeshire and Norfolk.  Tyndall Q493 has a speculated male line tree to this Robert de Tyndall.  A possibility is that Tyndalls and Marshes descend  on the male line from this Robert de Tyndall some time around 1200 or later, when the Marsh and Tyndall families lived close to each other.
Family B1- Marsh: ancestor = John Marsh b. 1787 West Wratting.  On 25 June 2011 a New SNP L617 was discovered for the first time in A1..
Family B20- Marsh: ancestor = Thomas Marsh b. circa 1670, lived West Wratting. 
Family B96- Marsh: ancestor= James Marsh b.1794?  Burwell.       
Family B78- Marsh: traces to  Gt Bradley Suffolk, 5 miles from West Wratting.    
Family B103- Marsh: descends from James Marsh & Anne Radford living at Cambridge City shortly after 1800. 
Family B108- Marsh:  descends from Henry Marsh1781-1850 & Emma Challis, of Haverhill Suffolk, about 5 miles from West Wratting..
Family B160- Marsh:  descends from William Marsh of Bottisham.   
Family B102- Teague: Surname Teague.  Possibly descended from same family as Tyndall/ Tindales below in the past 900 years? 
Family of Q336- Tindale/ Payne: descends from John Sanford Tindale Payne (Tindale adopted by Payne family)b.1813 Kentucky, son of Isaac John Tindale b.1780.  Some USA Paynes match exactly on 12 markers, but have a large number of mutations difference on more markers.  It is therefore necessary to test more than 12 markers of Paynes to confirm a match with C1 group.
Family of Q493- Tyndall: descends from Charles Tindall b. circa 1662 USA.  It appears this family may descend on the male line from Baron Robert de Tyndall b. about 1120 in Northumberland, who may have been the son of an earlier Baron Adam de Tyndall.   There was a later Baron Adam de Tyndall (eldest son of Robert) who only had surviving daughters, and Tyndall estates passed to lines from these daughters, some of the descendants may have also used the surname Tyndall.
Family B176- : From Yorkshire around 1800.  May descend from a Tyndall family.

 . .
Mutation Rate
Estimate per 10,000 transmissions		 1
1		 4
4		 2
5		 3
2		 2
8		 2
8		 0
3		 0
4		 4
2		 2
2		 1
5		 2
6		 5
8		 1
2		 1
2		 0
3		 0
2		 3
9		 1
7		 2
4		 6
5		 3
5		 3
5		 3
5		 3
5		 2
9		 3
0		 1
2		 1
2		 4
1		 9
5		 1
5
0		 1
4
0		 1
7
0		 1
7
0		 2
0		 1
0		 . . . . . . . . . . . F F F . . . F . . F F . . . . . . . . . . 0
4		 . 3
3		 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1
5		 . 3
2		 . 3
2		 6
1		 9
4		 2
7		 . . 2
6		 . 1
5		 6
0		 . .   Haplogroup AncestralLocation
DYS
Numbers >


 		 3
9
3
 		 3
9
0
 		  
1
9
 		 3
9
1
 		 3
8
5
a		 3
8
5
b		 4
2
6
 		 3
8
8
 		 4
3
9
 		 3
8
9
-
1		 3
9
2
 		 3
8
9
-
2		 4
5
8
 		 4
5
9
a		 4
5
9
b		 4
5
5
 		 4
5
4
 		 4
4
7
 		 4
3
7
 		 4
4
8
 		 4
4
9
 		 4
6
4
a		 4
6
4
b		 4
6
4
c		 4
6
4
d		 4
6
0
 		 G
 -
 H
4		 Y
C
A
2
a
 		 Y
C
A
2
b
 		 4
5
6
 		 6
0
7
 		 5
7
6
 		 5
7
0
 		 C
D
Y
a
 		 C
D
Y
b
 		 4
4
2
 		 4
3
8
 		 5
3
1
 		 5
7
8
 		 3
9
5
S
1
a		 3
9
5
S
1
b		 5
9
0
 		 5
3
7
 		 6
4
1
 		 4
7
2
 		 4
0
6
S
1
 		 5
1
1
 		 4
2
5
 		 4
1
3
a
 		 4
1
3
b
 		 5
5
7
 		 5
9
4
 		 4
3
6
 		 4
9
0
 		 5
3
4
 		 4
5
0
 		 4
4
4
 		 4
8
1
 		 5
2
0
 		 4
4
6
 		 6
1
7
 		 5
3
8
 		 4
8
7
 		 5
7
2
 		 6
4
0
 		 4
9
2
 		 5
6
5
 		 7
1
0
 		 4
8
5
 		 6
3
2
 		 4
9
5
 		 5
4
0
 		 7
1
4
 		 7
1
6
 		 7
1
7
 		 5
0
5
 		 4
5
6
 		 5
4
9
 		5
8
9
 		5
2
2
 		4
9
4
 		5
3
3
 		 6
3
6
 		 5
7
5
 		6
3
8
 		4
6
2
 		 4
5
2
 		 4
4
5
 		 G
A
T
T
A
A
1
0		 4
6
3
 		 4
4
1
 		 G
G
A
A
T
1
B
0
7		 5
2
5
 		 7
1
2
 		 5
9
3
 		 6
5
0
 		5
3
2
 		7
1
5
 		5
0
4
 		5
1
3
 		 5
6
1
 		 5
5
2
 		7
2
6
 		 6
3
5
/
C
4
 		 5
8
7
 		6
4
3
 		4
9
7
 		5
1
0
 		4
3
4
 		 4
6
1
 		 4
3
5
 		 . .
Locus 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 48 49 50 51 52 53 54 55 56 57 58 59 60 61 62 63 64 65 66 67 68 69 70 71 72 73 74 75 76 77 78 79 80 81 82 83 84 85 86 87 88 89 90 91 92 93 94 95 96 97 98 99 00 01 02 03 04 05 06 07 08 09 10 11 . .
R1b MODAL    13 24 14 11 11 14 12 12 12 13 13 29 17 9 10 11 11 25 15 19 29 15 15 17 17 11 11 19 23 16 15 18 17 37 38 12 12 11 9 15 16 8 10 10 8 10 10 12 23 23 16 10 12 12 15 8 12 22 20 13 12 11 13 11 11 12 12 35 15 09 16 12 26 26 19 12 11 13 12 10 9 12 12 10 11 11 30 12 13 24 13 10 10 21 15 19 13 24 17 12 15 24 12 23 18 10 14 17 9 12 11 R1b  
CLUSTER 1 common ancestor about 1200?:  Marsh (Cambridgeshire 1500)/ Tyndall  & Payne & Teague (Northumberland 1100/ Northamptonshire 1200)/ Spink (Yorkshire 1800 or 1400?)    
Y1 B1B20B78B96B123B103C1 . . . . . 13 24 14 11 12 14 12 12 11 13 13 29 16 9 10 11 11 25 15 19 28 14 16 17 17 11 11 19 23 15 14 18 17 35 . 12 12 11 9 15 16 8 10 10 8 10 9 12 23 23 16 10 12 12 15 8 12 22 20 12 12 11 13 11 12 12 12                                     11 29 12 13 25 13 10                       23           12   R1b1 Camb?
Z1B1C1.JohnMarsh.b.1787WestWratting           13 24 14 11 12 14 12 12 11 13 13 29 16 9 10 11 11 25 15 19 28 14 16 17 17 11 11 19 23 15 14 18 17 35 . 12 12 11 9 15 16 8 10 . 8 10 9 12 23 23 16 10 12 12 15 8 12 22 20 12 12 11 13 11 12 12 12                                     11 29 12 13 25 13 10                       23           12   R1b1 Cambridgeshire.
A1 B1C1>>WestWratting1787  L617+           13 24 14 11 12 14 12 12 11 13 13 29 16 9 10 11 11 25 15 19 28 14 16 17 17 11 11 19 23 15 14 18 17 35 38 12 12 11 9 15 16 8 10 11 8 10 9 12 23 23 16 10 12 12 15 8 12 22 20 12 12 11 13 11 12 12 12 36 15 09 16 11 26 26 19 12 11 13 12 10 9 12 12 10 11 11 29 12 12 25 13 10 10 20 15 20 13 24 16 13 15 24 12 23 18 10 14 17 9 12 11 R1b1 L617+ Camb.
A12 B1C1>>WestWratting1787           13 24 14 11 12 14 12 12 11 13 13 29 16 9 10 11 11 25 15 19 28 14 16 17 17 11 11 19 23 15 . . . . . 12 12 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 12 . . 12 . . . . . . .                         .           11 29 12 12 -- 13 10                       23           12   R1b Camb.
A31 B1C1>>WestWratting1787           13 24 14 11 12 14 12 12 11 13 13 29 16 9 10 11 11 25 15 19 28 14 16 17 17 11 11 19 23 15 . . . . . 12 12 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 12 . . 12 . . . . . . .                                     11 29 12 12 25 13 10                       23           12   R1b Camb.
A32B1C1>>WestWratting1787           13 24 14 11 12 14 12 12 11 13 13 29 16 9 10 11 11 25 15 19 28 14 16 17 17 11 11 19 23 15 . . . . . 12 12 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 13 . . 12 . . . . . . .                                     11 29 12 12 25 13 10                       23           12   R1b Camb.
A122B1C1>>WestWratting1787           13 24 14 11 12 14 . . 11 13 13 29 16 . . . . . 15 19 . . . . . . 11 . . . ? . . . . ? 12 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . ? . . . . ? . .                                     . ? . . ? . .                       23               R1b Camb.
A18B1C1>>WestWratting1787           13 24 14 11 12 14 12 12 11 13 13 29 16 9 10 11 11 24 15 19 28 14 16 17 17 11 11 19 23 15 . . . . . 12 12 . . . . . . ? . . . . . . . . . . . . 12 . . 12 . . . . . . .                                     11 29 12 13 25 13 10                       22           12   R1b Camb.
A160 B160C1>>Bottisham1798           13 24 14 11 12 14 12 12 11 13 13 29 16 9 10 11 11 25 15 19 28 14 16 16 17 11 11 19 23 15 14 18 17 35 39 12 12 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .                                     . . . . . . .                       .               R1b Camb.
Z20 B20C1WilliamMarsh.b.1741WW           13 24 14 11 12 14 12 12 11 13 13 29 16 9 10 11 11 25 15 19 28 14 16 16 17 11 11 19 23 15 14 18 17 35 39 12 12 11 9 15 16 8 10 10 8 10 9 12 23 23 16 10 12 12 15 8 12 22 20 12 12 11 13 11 12 12 12                                     11 29 12 13 25 13 10                       23           12   R1b Camb.
A20 B20C1>>WestWratting1671           13 24 14 10 12 14 12 12 11 13 13 29 16 9 10 11 11 25 15 19 28 14 16 16 17 11 11 19 23 15 14 18 17 35 39 12 12 11 9 15 16 8 10 10 8 10 9 12 23 23 16 10 12 12 15 8 12 22 20 12 12 11 13 11 12 12 12                                     11 29 12 13 25 13 10                       23           12   R1b Camb.
A114 B20C1>>WestWratting1671           13 24 14 11 12 14 12 12 11 13 13 29 16 9 10 11 11 25 15 19 28 14 16 16 17 11 11 19 23 15 14 18 17 35 39 12 12 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .                                     . . . . . . .                       .               R1b Camb.
A128B20?C1>>WestWratting1671           13 24 14 11 12 14 12 12 11 13 13 29 16 . . 11 11 25 . 19 28 14 16 16 17 11 11 19 23 . . . . . . ? 12 . . . . . . ? . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . ? . . . . . . .                                     11 . . . 25 13 .                       .           12   R1b Camb.
A96 B96C1>>Burwell1829>>WWc1560?           13 24 14 11 12 14 12 12 11 13 13 29 16 9 10 11 11 25 15 19 28 14 17 17 17 11 11 19 23 15 14 19 17 35 39 12 12 11 9 15 16 8 10 10 8 10 9 12 23 23 16 10 12 12 15 8 12 22 20 12 12 11 13 11 12 12 12                                     . . . . . . .                       .               R1b Camb.
A123B123C1>>West Wratting.c1560           13 24 14 11 12 14 12 12 11 13 13 29 16 9 10 11 11 25 15 19 28 14 16 17 17 11 11 19 23 15 14 19 17 35 39 12 12 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . ? . . . . ? . .                                     . ? . . ? . .                       .               R1b Camb.
A108 B108C1>>WestWratting.c1560?           13 24 14 11 12 14 12 12 11 13 13 29 16 9 10 11 11 25 15 19 28 14 16 17 17 11 11 19 23 15 14 18 17 34 39 12 12 . . . . . . 10 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 12                                     . . . . . . .                       .               R1b Suffolk
A103B103C1>>Cambridge1791           13 24 14 11 12 14 12 12 11 13 13 29 17 9 10 11 11 25 15 19 28 14 16 17 17 11 11 19 23 15 14 18 17 35 39 12 12 11 9 15 16 8 10 10 8 10 9 12 23 23 16 10 12 12 15 8 12 22 20 12 12 11 13 11 12 12 12                                     . . . . . . .                       .               R1b Camb.
A78 B78C1>>GtBradleySuffolk1742?           13 24 14 11 12 14 12 12 11 13 13 29 16 9 10 11 11 25 15 19 28 14 16 17 17 11 11 19 23 15 14 18 17 36 39 12 12 11 9 15 16 8 10 10 8 10 9 12 23 23 16 10 12 12 15 8 12 22 20 12 12 11 13 11 12 12 12         .                           . . . . . . .