MARSH FAMILIES
DNA PROJECT

John Marsh, Project Administrator, ajmarsh@arrrg.org
Y-DNA Haplogroup R1b P312+ DF27+ L617+

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INTRODUCTION:

A new Y-DNA SNP called L617 was discovered in 2011 in a Marsh (Participant A1 below) in the WTY test at Family Tree DNA.
The person tested L617+ is in haplogroup R1b P312+, below SNP DF27+.  For anyone who has a DF27+ result, they might consider testing
for L617.

Families who are L617+:  So far there have been 4 clusters found for presumed R1b P312+ DF27+ L21- people who are L617+.
One sizable cluster may of many different surnames may descend from a Baron de Tyndall living Northumberland England about the
year 1100.  Two families have links to Cambridgeshire England.

There has also been one person who has a L617+ result who is R1b L21+, which could mean a separate mutation to L617+, or a testing error. 
Of the thousands tested for L617+ in the GenoGraphic 2.0 test, even an error of one per thousand would turn up a few error results. 
Family Tree DNA can do specific L617 tests which can verify results if there is any doubt. 

It is presumed based on results so far, that the SNP L617+ occurred about 3,000 years ago in NW Europe in the Bronze age. 
Several results trace to Eastern England around 1100, and one to Netherlands/ Flanders area around 1250.

Anyone testing L617+:  If someone has test results of L617+ please contact John Marsh at ajmarsh@arrrg.org

Iberian origin??? Z2552+ L617+:  In the tree at www.yfull.com/tree it shows 6 people all likely of Iberian origin who are Z2552+,
one of these HG01606 is L617+.  This suggests that Z2552+ is above L617+ on the tree, and hints that an Iberian origin for L617+
is a possibility about 3000+ years ago. 

HOW TO ORDER A TEST FOR L617:

Only persons who are R1b haplogroup, and have the SNP P312+ and also DF27+may have the SNP L617.  Persons who have tested
at the test company Family Tree DNA are able to order the SNP. It is not particulraly clear on how to order the SNP, so try following
these instructions...

1) Go to your Faimily Tree DNA Personal Web page.
2) Click on "Order Tests and Upgrades" from the menu on the left hand side of the page.
3) Click on "order advanced tests".  (note don't click on the alternative option "order advanced SNP tests")
4) Under "Filter" at "test type" select "SNP"
5) Under "Filter" at "marker" type in "L617" and click on "find".
6) Then for L617 click on "add".
7) Then click on "Next" at the far right of the page.  This takes you to the page to compllete payment and complete the order.

If anyone is unsure if there is any value in them testing for L617, please John at email ajmarsh@arrrg.org to obtain advice.

Y-DNA TEST RESULTS


 

MARSH FAMILIES DNA PROJECT:
Project Administrator AJ Marsh
ajmarsh@arrrg.org
Haplogroup
R1b P312+DF27+
L21- L617+
 
The following are either tested L617+,
or are inferred to be L617+ because a relative has been tested.
(Teague/Tyndall families ... by an approximate method, direct male line relationship to Marsh  families may be about 1,200 years ago, (FTDNA alternatively estimate 50% chance about 500 years ago with less than 3% chance of more than 800 years.)
 
. .
Surnames tested or inferred to be DF27+L617+
MARSH

TYNDALL
TEAGUE
(originally TYNDALL???)
PAYNE
(originally TINDALE)
SPINK
(originally TYNDALL???)
ROGERS
MARKEY
OREEL
Results Strings for 111 Y-DNA markers as tested at Family Tree DNA 
CLUSTER 1: Currently, Marshes and Tyndalls are thought to have a common ancestor on the direct male line about 500 to 900 years ago, and this infers that L617+ is therefore at least 500 to 900 years old, but possibly older.  It is though possible that Marsh/ Tyndall/ Teague/ Payne/ Spink families may have descended from a Baron (Adam or Robert) de Tyndall in Tynde Dale, Northumberland in the 1100s.  It is unclear what the origin of the de Tyndall family was prior to 1100 was, but a possibility is that they were a family of Norman origin on the direct male line.
CLUSTER 2:  Only Rogers tested L617+ to date from this cluster.  The common ancestor of the Cluster 1  L617+ and the Cluster 2  L617+ would seem to be about 3,000 to 5,000 years ago.  Rogers Q601 and Marsh A1 have 26 mutations between them on 67 markers, implying a reasonable time back to common ancestor.

 
. .
L617+

R1b1a2a1a1b
(A1 tested P312+L21-Z196-DF19-
L617+)

 

 

Marsh:Marshes generally tracing to Cambridgeshire (in particular West Wratting), Suffolk & Essex England.  There is evidence of a Marshe/ Marche family living in West Wratting Cambridgeshire as far back as the late 1400s, and these are likely ancestors of the C1 Marshes from west Wratting .   There was a Mareys (de Merc/ Maris/ Marsh) family owning land at West Wratting up until 1364 when it passed via an heiress to a Brown family http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report.aspx?compid=66721 .  A Simon de Merc (de Merk/ de Marcq/ Marsh) owned land at "Wratting" in the 1100s.  There is no evidence to connect the C1 Marsh group to Simon de Merc, or the West Wratting Mareys family, but the possibility of a connection is being investigated.  Current thinking is that West Wratting Marshes may not be direct male line descendants of Simon de Merc, who probably descended from the de Marcq family from near Calais, in France.  Current evidence suggests that the de Marcq family were haplogroup I., represented by a Marris family from Lincolnshire.  After 1200, a descendant of Baron Robert de Tyndall moved to Northamptonshire and Norfolk, and had estates within a few miles of Marsh estates in Cambridgeshire and Norfolk.  Tyndall Q493 has a speculated male line tree to this Robert de Tyndall.  A possibility is that Tyndalls and Marshes descend  on the male line from this Robert de Tyndall some time around 1200 or later, when the Marsh and Tyndall families lived close to each other.
Family B1- Marsh: ancestor = John Marsh b. 1787 West Wratting
On 25 June 2011 a New SNP L617 was discovered for the first time in A1..
Family B20- Marsh
:
ancestor = Thomas Marsh b. circa 1670, lived West Wratting
Family B96- Marsh: ancestor= James Marsh b.1794?  Burwell.       
Family B78- Marsh
:
traces to  Gt Bradley Suffolk, 5 miles from West Wratting.    
Family B103- Marsh:
descends from James Marsh & Anne Radford living at Cambridge City shortly after 1800. 
Family B108- Marsh
:  descends from Henry Marsh1781-1850 & Emma Challis, of Haverhill Suffolk, about 5 miles from West Wratting..
Family B160- Marsh:  descends from William Marsh of Bottisham.   

Family B102- Teague
:
Surname Teague.  Possibly descended from same family as Tyndall/ Tindales below in the past 900 years? 

Family of Q336- Tindale/ Payne: descends from John Sanford Tindale Payne (Tindale adopted by Payne family)b.1813 Kentucky, son of Isaac John Tindale b.1780.  Some USA Paynes match exactly on 12 markers, but have a large number of mutations difference on more markers.  It is therefore necessary to test more than 12 markers of Paynes to confirm a match with C1 group.
Family of Q493- Tyndall: descends from Charles Tindall b. circa 1662 USA.  It appears this family may descend on the male line from Baron Robert de Tyndall b. about 1120 in Northumberland, who may have been the son of an earlier Baron Adam de Tyndall.   There was a later Baron Adam de Tyndall (eldest son of Robert) who only had surviving daughters, and Tyndall estates passed to lines from these daughters, some of the descendants may have also used the surname Tyndall.
Family B176- : From Yorkshire around 1800.  May descend from a Tyndall family.

. .
Mutation Rate
Estimate per 10,000 transmissions
1
1
4
4
2
5
3
2
2
8
2
8
0
3
0
4
4
2
2
2
1
5
2
6
5
8
1
2
1
2
0
3
0
2
3
9
1
7
2
4
6
5
3
5
3
5
3
5
3
5
2
9
3
0
1
2
1
2
4
1
9
5
1
5
0
1
4
0
1
7
0
1
7
0
2
0
1
0
. . . . . . . . . . . F F F . . . F . . F F . . . . . . . . . . 0
4
. 3
3
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1
5
. 3
2
. 3
2
6
1
9
4
2
7
. . 2
6
. 1
5
6
0
. .   Haplogroup AncestralLocation
DYS
Numbers >


 
3
9
3
 
3
9
0
 
 
1
9
 
3
9
1
 
3
8
5
a
3
8
5
b
4
2
6
 
3
8
8
 
4
3
9
 
3
8
9
-
1
3
9
2
 
3
8
9
-
2
4
5
8
 
4
5
9
a
4
5
9
b
4
5
5
 
4
5
4
 
4
4
7
 
4
3
7
 
4
4
8
 
4
4
9
 
4
6
4
a
4
6
4
b
4
6
4
c
4
6
4
d
4
6
0

 
G
-
H
4
Y
C
A

2
a
 
Y
C
A

2
b
 
4
5
6
 
6
0
7
 
5
7
6
 
5
7
0
 
C
D
Y

a
 
C
D
Y

b
 
4
4
2
 
4
3
8
 
5
3
1
 
5
7
8
 
3
9
5
S
1
a
3
9
5
S
1
b
5
9
0
 
5
3
7
 
6
4
1
 
4
7
2
 
4
0
6
S
1
 
5
1
1
 
4
2
5
 
4
1
3
a
 
4
1
3
b
 
5
5
7
 
5
9
4
 
4
3
6
 
4
9
0
 
5
3
4
 
4
5
0
 
4
4
4
 
4
8
1
 
5
2
0
 
4
4
6
 
6
1
7
 
5
3
8
 
4
8
7
 
5
7
2
 
6
4
0
 
4
9
2
 
5
6
5
 
7
1
0
 
4
8
5
 
6
3
2
 
4
9
5
 
5
4
0
 
7
1
4
 
7
1
6
 
7
1
7
 
5
0
5
 
4
5
6
 
5
4
9
5
8
9
5
2
2
4
9
4
5
3
3
 
6
3
6
 
5
7
5
6
3
8
4
6
2
 
4
5
2
 
4
4
5
 
G
A
T
T
A

A
1
0
4
6
3
 
4
4
1
 
G
G
A
A
T

1
B
0
7
5
2
5
 
7
1
2
 
5
9
3
 
6
5
0
5
3
2
7
1
5
5
0
4
5
1
3
 
5
6
1
 
5
5
2
7
2
6
 
6
3
5
/
C
4
 
5
8
7
6
4
3
4
9
7
5
1
0
4
3
4
 
4
6
1
 
4
3
5
 
. .
Locus 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 48 49 50 51 52 53 54 55 56 57 58 59 60 61 62 63 64 65 66 67 68 69 70 71 72 73 74 75 76 77 78 79 80 81 82 83 84 85 86 87 88 89 90 91 92 93 94 95 96 97 98 99 00 01 02 03 04 05 06 07 08 09 10 11 . .
R1b MODAL    13 24 14 11 11 14 12 12 12 13 13 29 17 9 10 11 11 25 15 19 29 15 15 17 17 11 11 19 23 16 15 18 17 37 38 12 12 11 9 15 16 8 10 10 8 10 10 12 23 23 16 10 12 12 15 8 12 22 20 13 12 11 13 11 11 12 12 35 15 09 16 12 26 26 19 12 11 13 12 10 9 12 12 10 11 11 30 12 13 24 13 10 10 21 15 19 13 24 17 12 15 24 12 23 18 10 14 17 9 12 11 R1b  
CLUSTER 1 common ancestor about 1200?:  Marsh (Cambridgeshire 1500)/ Tyndall  & Payne & Teague (Northumberland 1100/ Northamptonshire 1200)/ Spink (Yorkshire 1800 or 1400?)    
Y1 B1B20B78B96B123B103C1 . . . . . 13 24 14 11 12 14 12 12 11 13 13 29 16 9 10 11 11 25 15 19 28 14 16 17 17 11 11 19 23 15 14 18 17 35 . 12 12 11 9 15 16 8 10 10 8 10 9 12 23 23 16 10 12 12 15 8 12 22 20 12 12 11 13 11 12 12 12                                     11 29 12 13 25 13 10                       23           12   R1b1 Camb?
Z1B1C1.JohnMarsh.b.1787WestWratting           13 24 14 11 12 14 12 12 11 13 13 29 16 9 10 11 11 25 15 19 28 14 16 17 17 11 11 19 23 15 14 18 17 35 . 12 12 11 9 15 16 8 10 . 8 10 9 12 23 23 16 10 12 12 15 8 12 22 20 12 12 11 13 11 12 12 12                                     11 29 12 13 25 13 10                       23           12   R1b1 Cambridgeshire.
A1 B1C1>>WestWratting1787  L617+#           13 24 14 11 12 14 12 12 11 13 13 29 16 9 10 11 11 25 15 19 28 14 16 17 17 11 11 19 23 15 14 18 17 35 38 12 12 11 9 15 16 8 10 11 8 10 9 12 23 23 16 10 12 12 15 8 12 22 20 12 12 11 13 11 12 12 12 36 15 09 16 11 26 26 19 12 11 13 12 10 9 12 12 10 11 11 29 12 12 25 13 10 10 20 15 20 13 24 16 13 15 24 12 23 18 10 14 17 9 12 11 R1b1 L617+ Camb.
A12 B1C1>>WestWratting1787           13 24 14 11 12 14 12 12 11 13 13 29 16 9 10 11 11 25 15 19 28 14 16 17 17 11 11 19 23 15 . . . . . 12 12 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 12 . . 12 . . . . . . .                         .           11 29 12 12 -- 13 10                       23           12   R1b Camb.
A31 B1C1>>WestWratting1787           13 24 14 11 12 14 12 12 11 13 13 29 16 9 10 11 11 25 15 19 28 14 16 17 17 11 11 19 23 15 . . . . . 12 12 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 12 . . 12 . . . . . . .                                     11 29 12 12 25 13 10                       23           12   R1b Camb.
A32B1C1>>WestWratting1787           13 24 14 11 12 14 12 12 11 13 13 29 16 9 10 11 11 25 15 19 28 14 16 17 17 11 11 19 23 15 . . . . . 12 12 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 13 . . 12 . . . . . . .                                     11 29 12 12 25 13 10                       23           12   R1b Camb.
A122B1C1>>WestWratting1787           13 24 14 11 12 14 . . 11 13 13 29 16 . . . . . 15 19 . . . . . . 11 . . . ? . . . . ? 12 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . ? . . . . ? . .                                     . ? . . ? . .                       23               R1b Camb.
A18B1C1>>WestWratting1787           13 24 14 11 12 14 12 12 11 13 13 29 16 9 10 11 11 24 15 19 28 14 16 17 17 11 11 19 23 15 . . . . . 12 12 . . . . . . ? . . . . . . . . . . . . 12 . . 12 . . . . . . .                                     11 29 12 13 25 13 10                       22           12   R1b Camb.
A160 B160C1>>Bottisham1798           13 24 14 11 12 14 12 12 11 13 13 29 16 9 10 11 11 25 15 19 28 14 16 16 17 11 11 19 23 15 14 18 17 35 39 12 12 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .                                     . . . . . . .                       .               R1b Camb.
Z20 B20C1WilliamMarsh.b.1741WW           13 24 14 11 12 14 12 12 11 13 13 29 16 9 10 11 11 25 15 19 28 14 16 16 17 11 11 19 23 15 14 18 17 35 39 12 12 11 9 15 16 8 10 10 8 10 9 12 23 23 16 10 12 12 15 8 12 22 20 12 12 11 13 11 12 12 12                                     11 29 12 13 25 13 10                       23           12   R1b Camb.
A20 B20C1>>WestWratting1671           13 24 14 10 12 14 12 12 11 13 13 29 16 9 10 11 11 25 15 19 28 14 16 16 17 11 11 19 23 15 14 18 17 35 39 12 12 11 9 15 16 8 10 10 8 10 9 12 23 23 16 10 12 12 15 8 12 22 20 12 12 11 13 11 12 12 12                                     11 29 12 13 25 13 10                       23           12   R1b Camb.
A114 B20C1>>WestWratting1671#           13 24 14 11 12 14 12 12 11 13 13 29 16 9 10 11 11 25 15 19 28 14 16 16 17 11 11 19 23 15 14 18 17 35 39 12 12 11 9 15 16 8 10 10 8 10 9 12 23 23 16 10 12 12 15 8 12 22 20 12 12 11 13 11 12 12 12                                     . . . . . . .                       .               R1b Camb.
A128B20?C1>>WestWratting1671           13 24 14 11 12 14 12 12 11 13 13 29 16 . . 11 11 25 . 19 28 14 16 16 17 11 11 19 23 . . . . . . ? 12 . . . . . . ? . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . ? . . . . . . .                                     11 . . . 25 13 .                       .           12   R1b Camb.
A96 B96C1>>Burwell1829>>WWc1560?           13 24 14 11 12 14 12 12 11 13 13 29 16 9 10 11 11 25 15 19 28 14 17 17 17 11 11 19 23 15 14 19 17 35 39 12 12 11 9 15 16 8 10 10 8 10 9 12 23 23 16 10 12 12 15 8 12 22 20 12 12 11 13 11 12 12 12                                     . . . . . . .                       .               R1b Camb.
A123B123C1>>West Wratting.c1560#           13 24 14 11 12 14 12 12 11 13 13 29 16 9 10 11 11 25 15 19 28 14 16 17 17 11 11 19 23 15 14 19 17 35 39 12 12 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . ? . . . . ? . .                                     . ? . . ? . .                       .               R1b Camb.
A108 B108C1>>WestWratting.c1560?           13 24 14 11 12 14 12 12 11 13 13 29 16 9 10 11 11 25 15 19 28 14 16 17 17 11 11 19 23 15 14 18 17 34 39 12 12 . . . . . . 10 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 12                                     . . . . . . .                       .               R1b Suffolk
A103B103C1>>Cambridge1791#           13 24 14 11 12 14 12 12 11 13 13 29 17 9 10 11 11 25 15 19 28 14 16 17 17 11 11 19 23 15 14 18 17 35 39 12 12 11 9 15 16 8 10 10 8 10 9 12 23 23 16 10 12 12 15 8 12 22 20 12 12 11 13 11 12 12 12                                     . . . . . . .                       .               R1b Camb.
A78 B78C1>>GtBradleySuffolk1742?           13 24 14 11 12 14 12 12 11 13 13 29 16 9 10 11 11 25 15 19 28 14 16 17 17 11 11 19 23 15 14 18 17 36 39 12 12 11 9 15 16 8 10 10 8 10 9 12 23 23 16 10 12 12 15 8 12 22 20 12 12 11 13 11 12 12 12         .                           . . . . . . .                       .               R1b Suffolk
A154 B154C1>>LeytonEssex1812? #           13 24 14 11 12 14 12 12 11 13 13 29 16 9 10 11 11 25 15 19 29 14 16 16 17 11 11 19 23 15 14 14 17 35 39 12 12 11 9 15 16 8 10 10 8 10 9 12 23 23 16 10 12 12 15 8 12 22 20 12 12 11 13 11 12 12 12 36 15 09 16 11 26 26 19 12 11 13 12 10 9 12 12 10 11 11 29 12 13 25 13 10 10 20 15 20 13 24 16 13 15 24 12 23 18 10 14 17 9 12 11 R1b1 L617+ Essex
A102B102C1Teague>>USA L617+#           13 24 14 11 12 14 12 12 11 13 13 29 16 9 10 11 11 25 15 19 29 14 15 17 17 11 11 19 23 15 14 18 17 35 37 12 12 11 9 15 16 8 10 10 8 10 10 12 23 23 16 10 12 12 15 8 12 22 20 12 12 11 13 10 12 12 12 36 15 09 16 11 26 26 19 12 11 13 12 10 9 12 12 10 11 11 29 12 13 25 13 10 10 20 15 20 13 24 17 12 15 24 12 23 18 10 14 17 9 12 11 R1b1 L617+ USA.
Q336Payne/Tindale>>USA.1780           13 24 14 11 12 14 12 12 11 13 13 29 16 9 10 11 11 25 15 19 29 14 15 17 17 11 11 19 23 . ? . . . . 12 12 . . . . . . . . . ? . . . . . . . . . 12 . . 12 . . . ? ? . .                                     11 29 12 13 25 13 10                       23           12   R1b USA.
Q493Tyndall>>USA.1662.UK.1120?           13 24 14 11 12 14 12 12 11 13 13 29 16 9 10 11 11 26 15 19 29 14 15 17 17 11 11 19 23 15 14 18 17 35 37 12 12 11 9 15 16 8 10 10 8 10 10 12 23 23 16 10 12 12 15 8 12 22 20 12 12 11 13 10 12 12 12                                     . ? . . ? . .                       .               R1b USA.
A176B176C1>>Spink>>Yorkshire1700#s           13 24 14 11 12 14 12 12 11 13 13 29 16 9 10 11 11 25 15 19 29 14 15 17 17 11 11 19 23 15 14 18 17 35 38 12 12 11 9 15 16 8 10 10 8 10 10 12 23 23 16 10 12 12 15 8 12 22 20 12 12 11 13 10 12 12 12                                     . . . . . . .                       .               R1b .
A189B189C1>>WestmorelandSurname#           13 24 14 11 12 14 12 12 11 13 13 29 16 9 10 11 11 25 15 19 29 14 15 17 17 11 11 19 23 15 . . . . . 12 12 . . . . . . ? . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . ? . . . . . . .                                     11 29 12 13 25 13 10                       23           12 . R1b1 L617+ Westmoreland ENG?
CLUSTER 2:  Rogers (Cambridgeshire 1800)    
Q601Rogers>>1802.UK.Cambridgeshire#           13 24 14 12 11 15 12 12 13 13 13 29 17 9 9 11 11 25 15 18 29 15 16 16 17 11 11 19 23 16 15 19 17 38 38 11 12 11 9 15 16 8 10 10 8 10 10 12 23 23 16 10 12 12 16 8 11 22 20 13 11 11 13 11 11 12 12 36 15 09 16 11 25 26 19 12 11 12 12 10 9 12 12 10 11 11 30 12 13 24 13 10 10 20 15 19 14 23 16 13 15 24 12 23 18 10 14 17 9 12 11 R1b1 L617+ Camb.
CLUSTER 3?:  NOTE: not sure if this cluster is  DF27+    
Q639 >>  >> France           13 24 14 11 11 14 12 12 11 13 13 29 17 9 10 11 11 24 15 19 29 15 16 16 16 10 12 19 23 16 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .                                     . . . . . . .                       .               R1b France
Q640 >>  >> Nieppe Flanders           13 24 14 11 11 14 12 12 11 13 13 29 17 9 10 11 11 24 15 19 29 15 16 16 12 10 12 19 23 16 . . . . . 12 12 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 12 . . 14 . . . . ? . .                                     . 31 12 13 . 13 10                       .           12 . R1b1 L617+ Netherlands/Flanders
Qx >>SCHRUIS  >> Netherlands           13 23 14 11 11 14 12 12 11 13 13 29 17 . . . . . . . . 15 16 . . 10 12 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .                                     . 30 . . 25 . .                       .               ??????? Netherlands/Flanders
CLUSTER 4?:  From 1000 genomes project, apparently DF27+, no further details known but may be accessible via the 1000 genomes project. see http://www.yfull.com/tree/R/    
HG01606 1000GenomeProject>>Iberia           . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .                                     . . . . . . .                       .                       .               R1b1 L617+ Iberia


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